Anthony Bourdain on New Jersey and why his show stands out in one of his last interviews

Ian Spelling
Special to NorthJersey.com
Anthony Bourdain.

Editor's Note: Anthony Bourdain was slated to be the cover of the November issue of (201) magazine, the food issue. Freelance writer Ian Spelling, who was commissioned to write the piece, interviewed Bourdain in April 2018. Bourdain, who grew up in Leonia, died by suicide, CNN reported June 8. This is among the last interviews he gave. Spelling reports that "he sounded engaged, speaking eloquently about food and his youth in Leonia, and forcefully supporting his girlfriend, actress-director-activist Asia Argento."

Spelling spoke to Bourdain by phone while he was shooting "Parts Unknown," his CNN show, in Spain. Here is the interview, edited and condensed.

What’s been a highlight for you from Season 11?

We could start with a show in West Virginia, which I'm very excited about, because it's a world very different from what I grew up in. Most of the people there voted different than I did and come from a very different culture. I’ve got to tell you, I had a wonderful, really amazing time. It's a heartbreakingly beautiful place. People were incredibly kind to me. I think it's a really interesting and provocative show in a lot of ways.

Where are you shooting for season 12?

Spain, of course. Indonesia, shortly. A show in Florence among others. I'll be in West Texas as well.

Indonesia to West Texas. You choose the locations, but even you have to be a bit amazed by the breadth of the show.

I very much enjoy this incredible freedom to go pretty much anywhere I want, do whatever I want and make a wildly self-indulgent hour of television about it, with people who I like. It's very, very gratifying.

From the archives:Bourdain opened up about NJ dining scene in 2015 interview

Tragic death:Twitter reacts to the death of Anthony Bourdain

There are countless travel and food shows out there, especially now. Why do you think "Parts Unknown" has clicked with so many people for so long?

I never think about that. I try really hard to never think about that. In my opinion, if you start thinking about what people like about the show, or who's watching, you repeat yourself. It's very easy, I think, to give the people what they want. That's why there are all these shows about the top 10 burgers, favorite diners, dives and drive-ins. That strikes a chord with people. Those are immensely popular shows. My joy of this show is doing something completely different, trying really batshit, out-there stuff. Very different tone. Very different themes. Very different locations. Very different style of shooting, music, editing. Different directors. That's exciting to me because I'm really doing it to keep myself happy, the people I work with interested, and pushing ourselves to do the best we can. The only thing I can guess, to answer your question, is we're not like the other guys. We're not afraid to fail. So, we're not afraid to do an episode that people are confused or horrified by. Our credo, our motto, is to just never repeat ourselves if at all possible, to try to do something different, to take chances, to change the game as much as we can, whenever we can.

Story continues below gallery

A dozen seasons into Parts Unknown, how would you say it’s evolved?

The people that we're able to collaborate with has gotten much wider. We just did a show in Hong Kong. I'm a huge fan of a Chinese director named Wong Kar-wai, and particularly his director of photography, a guy named Christopher Doyle, who's really one of those brilliant cinematographers in the history of film, as far as I'm concerned. My hope, my dream, was to look at Hong Kong through his eyes, and interview him. He ended up being director of photography for the entire episode. For me, this was like asking Joe DiMaggio to sign a baseball, and he says, "Not only will I sign your baseball, young man, I will play on your Little League team for the rest of the season."

What do you know about food now, in general, that you wish you knew in the earliest days of your career?

I guess that there's nothing more political than food, that there's nothing more indicative of a culture. I guess one of the things that really changed over the course of making this show and the previous show ("No Reservations," which aired on the Travel Channel) was I started looking at moving the cameras toward the things that go on around food, that it's not just about a plate of food. It's, “Who made the food? What's the situation? Why did they make this particular dish? And what else was going on?” We've shot during wars and civil conflicts. We've shot in some very tricky, very complicated locations, with complicated histories. I'm just really grateful that we're able to tell those stories more and more, and not just do straight-up food porn in every scene, which is frankly boring to me.

Food is passion, but it's also business. How hard is it to reconcile the two?

It was harder when I was a chef. Now, it's not really an issue that I have to deal with personally. I think it's why many chefs struggle with alcohol, or substance abuse, is you're doing a thing presumably for love. It's a creative enterprise, but you need to keep the marketplace and the customer in mind at all times. It's the hospitality industry. It's the service industry. You will not be able to survive as a going concern if you are just indulging your passion. At the end of the day, it's about repetition, about making the same dish the same way every single day. And that kind of grinds down on people who cook food primarily because they love it. For instance, it takes a little piece out of your soul every time someone orders a well-done steak. That hurts.

Speaking of business, how disappointing was it to you that the proposed food market in New York did not pan out? And have you given up on that entirely?

It's a disappointment, and relief. I was sort of embarrassed at the notion of having some gigantic project with my name on it. I don't have that big an ego, frankly. It was a huge, huge enterprise. It was proposed with a lot of moving parts, and a lot of commitments, to a lot of people from all over the world. It was really important to me that whatever happened, I was able to keep those promises. If I was asking someone… a sweets vendor from Saigon, to come all the way to New York, and (start) a new life, I wanted to be damn sure that I was able to keep my side of the bargain. As that situation became cloudier, I just felt I couldn't in good faith go on.

Is that completely kaput? Would you ever reconsider something smaller?

Right now, I'm just enjoying breathing free air.

Your girlfriend, Asia Argento, has been right in the heart of the #MeToo movement, and you’ve been very vocal in your support of her. What has it meant for you to be there for Asia during this Weinstein-#MeToo situation?

It's showed me a lot about the world. I've learned a lot. It's like waking up in the Matrix. To see up close the courage it took to stand up to overwhelming forces like that. To put up with the kind of bullshit, and utter and complete lack of support that she's received, and the vilification that she's received in her own country, is deeply angering and disappointing. Look, I'm inspired and honored and grateful to know somebody so courageous, and to stand up to these... what seemed like the most-powerful man in the universe, and in an environment where usually people who do that are crushed, and were crushed for decades.

Let's bring this back home for the last few questions. As a kid in Leonia, where did you eat? Were you happy with a hamburger?

I loved going to Hiram's, up in Fort Lee. I still drive out there now and again with my daughter to get their burgers and hot dogs. Sol & Sol in Englewood. Baumgart's, also in Englewood. A lot of the places that I grew up eating are closed, of course. Eating down on the Jersey Shore was always great, and Long Beach Island. I can't think of any places off hand that are still open, but I have very sentimental feelings about the food of my childhood, as I think most people do.

Someone is going to visit New Jersey from wherever in the world they are from. How would you describe the region's food?

The greatness of Jersey, to me, is the indigenous New Jersey food, the tomatoes, the corn in summer, the steamer clams, the fried blowfish tails that I used to have as a kid down on the shore, salt water taffy on the boardwalk. I grew up eating not particularly distinguished red sauce, Italian-American, that in retrospect probably wasn't that good, but of course it will always have a place in my heart. I grew up eating crappy fake Cantonese food, gooey, shiny, fake Cantonese food, and overcooked, over-sauced pasta with giant meatballs, that there's only a glancing relationship to real Italian. But I have to say that I'm deeply sentimental about both of those things. That will always be the taste of Jersey to me. Of course, it's changed, but I don't spend a lot of time there. What time I do, I have to admit, for better or worse, I'm going straight back to the flavors of my youth. And in that case, that means Hiram's.

If we put your life in food terms, what part of the meal are you at?

Maybe the cheese course. I don't eat dessert. Give me a big hunk of Stilton cheese and a glass of port wine, I'm a happy man.

 

How to get help

Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255.